Curse

deluxe · Apr 26, 2011, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Yeah Floor and Fate Crusher both presented really good arguments. The kind that convince people rather than just worsen that signal to noise ratio. Zan did present an interesting counterpoint to one of Floors points about KDs up the page a bit though.

Zan? The guy that doesn't understand my OP is a troll-post? I don't read posts from people that don't get it.

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka Tet

How are you defining sitting?
See what I did there?

Sitting is not a relative term. Balance is. You balance against something. A tightrope walker balances left and right. What do you want to see dervs balanced against? It seems like such an easy question doesn't it?

Essence Snow · Apr 26, 2011, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

Zan? The guy that doesn't understand my OP is a troll-post? I don't read posts from people that don't get it.

And yet somehow this thread is still open.....everyone knew from start it was going to be a flame thread...only reason it's still open is b/c of Lemming....(watch...this post will be deleted and thread will remain open)

unchained · Apr 26, 2011, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Dervs were never bad imo, they just had a poor design and enchant juggling wasn't great before, at least now I have a reason to play.

I understand people get pissed by the obvious buff of a class on a scale like its been done here and it makes there characters feel somewhat obsolete, but remember its just a game, who cares if the dervs are Oped? Just game on.

Gabs88 · Apr 26, 2011, 05:55 PM // 17:55

I made this team build a few days back, and tested it with my brand new Dervish. The results were breathtaking, not even my Ritualist could effectively compete with that. But I figured that if I could tank just a little more, the results would get even better! So I made myself a warrior, tried it with swords, tried it with scythe, tried it with hammer. And each time, the results were the same. And no, they weren't much to write home about.

The group wide spikes and damage I could easily achieve using the Dervish just charging in and fighting. Required tons of planning out and tactics using the Warrior. And even then the efficiency just wasn't on par, so I tried a Tactics based 100b build instead. Designed to give me a little tank so that I could group up the enemies. But again, the results were disappointing. I had to resort to using subpar skills because of poor energy regen and it just didn't pan out. That beautiful new Warrior with 15k armor and a Q9 15^50 Colossal Pick I've been saving for ages for the day I would finally make a warrior just didn't pan out. At best it may be used a little in PVP and I guess it's nice getting the HoM points. It's retired

So yes, the warrior definitely does seem to be in need of a proper buff in PVE. If anything I'd simply put like it to be given a skill that adds some proper survivability to the character, and is tied up to strength. And it needs to be a shout, something along the lines of a I Am Unstoppable on steroids. Maybe even a self only kind of "Healing Seed". 8 sec duration @ 14 strength and 20 seconds recharge, enough for a warrior to do the job of a real tank and have enough alone-time to ball the group up before calling the rest of the team and after that be able to support the spike properly.

That said, Warrior is not as much in need of a buff as what Rangers and Paragons are.

Ka Tet · Apr 26, 2011, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Sitting is not a relative term. Balance is. You balance against something. A tightrope walker balances left and right. What do you want to see dervs balanced against? It seems like such an easy question doesn't it?

Yes, but is it sitting on the left or right against what I'd be sitting. And, would I be sitting my thing on the left or right.
I'm trying to improve your signal to noise ratio right now.

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka Tet

Yes, but is it sitting on the left or right against what I'd be sitting. And, would I be sitting my thing on the left or right.
I'm trying to improve your signal to noise ratio right now.

That's fine, like I said, a lot of people have been unable or unwilling to answer it.

Fate Crusher · Apr 26, 2011, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Yeah Floor and Fate Crusher both presented really good arguments. The kind that convince people rather than just worsen that signal to noise ratio. Zan did present an interesting counterpoint to one of Floors points about KDs up the page a bit though.

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

Albeit, Zan is defending the Derv. The complaint he asks about is that the conditional pressure a Dervish gives out is irrelevant to a Warrior's Knockdown. Some builds have seen Hammer warriors getting involved to bring a new dynamic into the build. But for the KD to be strong and effective enough, it needs to be backed up by a strong ele/spike. Again, in HA all what the Derv train needs is 2 migraine mesmers and they can slowly outpressure a 3man backline. However, Lyssa's was nerfed so I don't know what the effect is on that yet (I haven't played since just before the latest update).

There are many other gripes I can assess for you and explain further (because I'm sure you would have asked me to, for the sake of arguing), but I'm frankly tired of posting the exact same posts only to explain in minor detail the problems PvP has at the moment, even putting it into context several times.

If one of the mods could weed out some of the trolling posts, maybe this thread could be beneficial for those who need to brush up on their PvP meta, because it's been explained to death.

deluxe · Apr 26, 2011, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by unchained

who cares if the dervs are Oped? Just game on.

I care.
When I get stomped by a warrior on my monk for example, I know the guy has skills. It is easy to spot a bad or a good warrior.
When I get stomped by a dervish, I get annoyed because I know the player is terrible, and even if he was good it doesn't matter.
Dervish require no skill to play, we want dervish to require skill.
Bad warriors get no kills, Bad dervishes do get kills.

Rangers, Mesmers, Necros, Monks, Rits, Eles, Warriors, Assassins all require skill, some more than others.
But what skill does a dervish require? Being able to roll his face over the keyboard.

Ka Tet · Apr 26, 2011, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

That's fine, like I said, a lot of people have been unable or unwilling to answer it.

You mean other than the ones who did and who you seemed to agree with?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Dervish pressure teams are shutting out other kinds of team.

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

Albeit, Zan is defending the Derv. The complaint he asks about is that the conditional pressure a Dervish gives out is irrelevant to a Warrior's Knockdown. Some builds have seen Hammer warriors getting involved to bring a new dynamic into the build. But for the KD to be strong and effective enough, it needs to be backed up by a strong ele/spike. Again, in HA all what the Derv train needs is 2 migraine mesmers and they can slowly outpressure a 3man backline. However, Lyssa's was nerfed so I don't know what the effect is on that yet (I haven't played since just before the latest update).

There are many other gripes I can assess for you and explain further (because I'm sure you would have asked me to, for the sake of arguing), but I'm frankly tired of posting the exact same posts only to explain in minor detail the problems PvP has at the moment, even putting it into context several times.

If one of the mods could weed out some of the trolling posts, maybe this thread could be beneficial for those who need to brush up on their PvP meta, because it's been explained to death.

I never wanted to argue. People have been getting upset at me, and I can see why. All I did originally was ask some quite easy questions, but a few people had trouble with them and decided to take that out on me. All I really wanted was to see posts like yours on page 7 and Floors, going into some detail about where the problems lay.

Looking back over the thread, it's quite obvious too.

@ Ka Tet: obviously...

You do recall me saying that my questions had been answered right?

unchained · Apr 26, 2011, 06:16 PM // 18:16

I've been playing a derv since nightfall was first released, and have watched as many other classes got buffs, waiting for the dervs turn, so I am a little biased towards the buff, cause I've waited long enough for it.

I do see your point, and i think much like anyone can 12345 on a sin dervs atm can be played by anyone with relatively little skill and achieve decent results. re-reading my first post I see how it came across, and i don't mean to be a arrogant arse, im just glad we FINALLY got an update, albeit it is abit too much.

PvP wise, I think HoF shouldn't give +25% IAS with no penalty, and i also think onslaught is just crazy and needs tuning down a bit.

PvE wise, i say leave them as they are, PvE's broken anyway.

Ka Tet · Apr 26, 2011, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

@ Ka Tet: obviously...

You do recall me saying that my questions had been answered right?

Then why do you keep repeating them?

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka Tet

Then why do you keep repeating them?

You do recall asking me to... right?

Ka Tet · Apr 26, 2011, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

You do recall asking me to... right?

Then why do you keep repeating them?

See what I did there?

pinkeyflower · Apr 26, 2011, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

I never wanted to argue. People have been getting upset at me, and I can see why. All I did originally was ask some quite easy questions, but a few people had trouble with them and decided to take that out on me. All I really wanted was to see posts like your first and Floors, going into some detail about where the problems lay.

Looking back over the thread, it's quite obvious too.

@ Ka Tet: obviously...

Please stop feeling sorry for yourself. You asked your questions, fair enough. People gave you relevant answers, fair enough. You ask a few more questions asking for some elucidation on the posts, fair enough. You get relevant answers to those questions, fair enough.

All your questions have been addressed and dealt with (I've read through every post since your first post on page 5), you should now step back think, maybe play some PvP if you still don't fully understand. Instead, you proceed to ignore what has been posted in regards to your questions and continue asking the same questions. Not detracting from floor or Fate Crusher but what they've written had basically already been written in previous posts. Surely you are able to read through a bunch of posts and extract from them some meaning and answers to your questions.

On the last page you posted what you learnt from this 4 page epic. Good, now with this vertiable nugget of knowledge obtained you can finally leave the discussion.

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkeyflower

Please stop feeling sorry for yourself. You asked your questions, fair enough. People gave you relevant answers, fair enough. You ask a few more questions asking for some elucidation on the posts, fair enough. You get relevant answers to those questions, fair enough.

All your questions have been addressed and dealt with (I've read through every post since your first post on page 5), you should now step back think, maybe play some PvP if you still don't fully understand. Instead, you proceed to ignore what has been posted in regards to your questions and continue asking the same questions. Not detracting from floor or Fate Crusher but what they've written had basically already been written in previous posts. Surely you are able to read through a bunch of posts and extract from them some meaning and answers to your questions.

On the last page you posted what you learnt from this 4 page epic. Good, now with this vertiable nugget of knowledge obtained you can finally leave the discussion.

Not feeling sorry for myself in any way. More for those who persist in attacking me. As I said, the reasons are obvious.

BTW, I don't see myself ignoring anything. I see people continuing to raise it with me after I posted agreement with Floor. Nor do I see any post before, or in fact, after, either of those, that coherently expresses what the problems are and why they are problems.

pinkeyflower · Apr 26, 2011, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Not feeling sorry for myself in any way. More for those who persist in attacking me. As I said, the reasons are obvious.

This shall be viewed as an attack: The reasons that you are attacked are despite being given answers repeatedly and satisfactorily you persist in asking the same question. It is like talking to a door. I pity you for being so dim-witted.

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkeyflower

This shall be viewed as an attack: The reasons that you are attacked are despite being given answers repeatedly and satisfactorily you persist in asking the same question. It is like talking to a door. I pity you for being so dim-witted.

Where have I repeated the question to someone who answered it? By the way, yes, calling someone dim-witted is generally construed as an attack

pinkeyflower · Apr 26, 2011, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Just in bold to stand out.

This thread has devolved into a flame war and really isn't worth keeping around any longer. Most questions that have been raised have been answered, people have had a chance to voice their opinions, the thread has run its course and is no longer worthwhile keeping open.